Starts 1st October.
And so we come to the long awaited third season of Korean amaze-o-show The Genius, this time with an (almost) all new cast and a lovely looking set.
If you’re new to The Genius, it’s a reality game based around games of logic, guile and game theory. It’s not always brilliant, but when it hits it really hits.
This time round the theme is Black Garnet. Garnets are the show’s currency – the more you have the more power you potentially have as you can buy advantages in the games. But each garnet also represents prize money so there is a balance to be struck. Evidently there is a twist to come.
We recommend following @bumdidlyump on Twitter for updates as she has subtitled the previous two seasons of the show. Links will likely appear on her Tumblr and if you want to catch up on Seasons 1 and 2, and you should, here is a big list of episodes. It seems to be going out on Wednesdays this time round which is a change from the usual Saturdays. We discussed the last series here. Edit: Links to Series 3 eps.
A note to our international friends – please don’t comment on episodes here until they’ve been subbed. We’re a UK site with a mainly UK audience. Once the English translations are up then it’s fair game.
So you can avoid spoilers, links to discussion based on specific episodes can be found below.
Previews so far:
Episode 1 seems based around the buying and selling of fruit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSyGJ8F5QhM
Here’s Dongmin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHFDdlWn2eA
Last year’s first eliminee Hweejong:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnIwHLshaGM
Here’s Junghoon:
Wow, loving the new set, getting very Industrial Zone vibes from it.
I wonder if anyone will be able to overtake Sangmin as my favourite player this season. Odd change of pace going from bringing back the champion and 3rd place players last series to bringing back the first eliminee this series, maybe they thought Hweejong had more to give
I’m interested in seeing how the new rules are going to work…Obviously with the subtitle garnets are going to be emphasized in some way (and new deathmatch rules too apparently)..
Player profiles: http://bxrme.tumblr.com/post/98040790228/the-genius-3-contestants
Women massively unrepresented again :/ I guess it must be because the demographics of the viewers are happy with that, but I don’t really understand this decision.
I believe that in S. Korea, the traditional idea that males are more intellectual is still strong, however, this social value is changing. Also, there is something about variety shows in S. Korea that makes the cast male-dominant (I.e. Running Man with 6 males and 1 female).
Also, it really depends on the players themselves. Although in season 1, there is 1 more female contestants than in both season 2 and 3 (season 1 has 5 female players), 3 made it to the Final 6, which made the male:female ratio seem more equal, unlike in season 2 where only 1 female player was left by round 6.
So I guess we need to see if the ladies can tough it up and beat out the opponents to seize the top spot.
Particular deduction of points for picking four men and zero women from the open casting call. Perhaps male applicants exceeded female ones 10:1, but either way it doesn’t look good.
Still looking forward to the show immensely, but always room for improvement.
WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN?
Wow, that’s a pretty radical change.
It sounds like production decided to nuke comfortable alliances from orbit. If garnets of losing players are removed from the game, winning them for yourself sounds like the only way to guarantee yourself a payout. I expect a lot more trade of favours for garnets to arise, and it will be a lot more meaningful this way. I’m not quite sure it will be more fun though.
On a more speculative note, if that’s production’s attitude, black garnets may also offer some sort of defensive advantage. Like their worth increasing in a triangular fashion, or making for advantages in following deathmatches or something.
Bump suggesting that gaining three black garnets allows you to “do” a mission to get yourself out of the deathmatch. Presumably BGs will also be on offer during the main matches otherwise it might not come up all that often.
I guess either the value of the regular garnets will go up or they’ll have a large added prize at the end….otherwise the winner would end up with less than 25 million or so…
You could just make the games pay out more garnets. Some combination of more garnets per win and more winners per game.
I have spoken in the past about the value of a brief, sharp co-operative pot sweetener in the finals as a disincentive for dragging dunderheads to the finals. Of course, the failure of the triple scoring round in Weakest Link on that front argues against me. I suppose I now have another justification for the same mechanic 🙂
The question is, what will happened to black garnets that are owned by eliminated player?
If the theory of 3 BG will give a chance for immunity, is true, then I think that the black garnet will roll over to the winner.
I mean seriously, in season 2, only 1 player survive 3 death match. (I forgot his name, but who is the third place?)
I expect this will be the case, yes.
The Politician Guy, as I recall.
I didn’t really like Lawyer Kang’s performance in Crime Scene.
It might have something to do with the editing, but he does not have a presence in the game at all. He is always sidelined in the game and on his signature “grumpy, stubborn, old man” look. He never has any information or deduction to offer either, hence, having little airtime.
I will see if he would be an asset to the game ambiance or would he just be a negative version of Yoo Jung Hyun from Season 2.
Nonetheless, I will continue to strongly support The Genius: Black Garnet.
P.S. I really like the idea of theft and violence would automatically result in a last place spot. Also, the rule about the Death Match player not getting the opponent’s garnets makes people with more garnets safer.
Didn’t he responsible for solving the doctor’s case? He’s the guy who find the critical evidence… You know. Father kills the mother with the disguise of plastic surgery?
I will give him credit for that. However, the majority of the time, he does not have a major role in play during the episodes. Maybe it is because he was never the “criminal” and never got landed with a suspicious role.
I will see how he does in The Genius before commenting on what he has to offer in the show. Maybe he will fare better in The Genius, who knows?
This looks like a more appropriate place to post this than anywhere else: MOLE ALERT. This is not a drill.
One Gareth Briggs is running The Mole as a one-day game in London on at least Saturday 25th October – and, possibly, also Sunday 26th October, depending on demand. Sign up here. Briggs has good form, and the fact that he knows to refer to the show additionally by its original Dutch name is a good sign. There will be some elimination, but tastefully and thoughtfully done. £5 per player covers the potential prize fund, and bring a smartphone.
Go play and do tell us all about it afterwards – or, at least, as much as you can…
Oh look! Press Conference!
[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itd4sHkOdhk&w=528&h=297%5D
Bumdidlyumptious’ has uploaded the Overall Rules of this season and the Rules of the First Main Match.
Overall Rules:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h4j10T9Eb8
Fruit Shop Rules:
A game of greed… Interesting to see a player actually decides to play solo. (Not allying)
There seems to be a few strategies here-
-In one of your fruits, try and get the others to agree to offer 5K, but then at the last second go down to 4K- (that’s a 12-16K swing depending on if it’s a 4-fruit or a 5-fruit group)
-You can offer 1K all the time in both fruits- you at best might only get 4K or 5K, but more importantly you give the others zero…
-The items are going to be key; I’d think using the Secret is more valuable than the Change….
-I think less than 10 garnets are going to be given out in this game; you might get one or two people over 50K, and a few over 40K, but based on the rules the average score is probably going to be around 25-30K (if everyone offered the max in each round for all fruits, you’d have a 13-way tie at 40K)
I think change is more useful here… Secret seriously can stab you in the back… Interestingly, if you stubbornly decided to go $1,000 on both fruit, you may make a maximum profit for $36,000
My strategy is to switch 1 of my “4 person” fruit to “5 person” fruit. Make $2,000 bid (Hopefully $20,000?) then wreck the game with $1,000 bid on remaining round on both of your fruit. Best case: $50,000 (or $66,000 ?)
Watched some subbed clips of the main match.
Some major betrayal happening behind people’s backs.
Please everyone, no spoilers until it all comes out in English.
EPISODE ONE IS UP.
Someone’s gonna get hurt real bad in this next episode. Standards are higher overall in this season.
Good first game, but the gender imbalance still sucks
Yes, and my heart sank when I saw 2 women going into the Death Match, meaning we were certain to lose one. Oh well.
I think my strategy would be to betray in the third round on one of the fruits (as long as you weren’t a watermelon). That’s the round where most of the deals were made secret and you could predict it as such.
I have no idea why the guy betrayed on both fruits. He could have told Ahyoung to take the money on one of them instead of just looking like a player to be ostracised.
He probably wanted 2 garnets, since betraying twice in 4R is the only way that will tip his total over $50. He’ll also get immunity as overall winner, in case any of his annoyed teammates wanted to send him into DM.
I’m a bit behind and I’ve just watched the Episode 1/Fruit Shop.
I think my only strategy would have been to play $5 or otherwise honestly in each round.
Maybe, if I was paying attention, change into a pair of fruits with someone I trusted, to at least match their score.
I probably would have switched to a larger group of fruits, although small groups seemed to have more trust.
Your chance of losing is slim and if you do get betrayed you gain a lot of information about your opponents’ playing style for later episodes (and they get a target on their back).
Deathmatch: Black & White II was played fairly poorly as there was more to the game – but still, excellent results!
A big booo to the male-female ratio. Series 2 was completely ruined for me because I felt the players deliberately picked off the women. Hopefully there will be no more of that: the players seem more balanced up to now.
Deathmatch additional note: I feel pretty confident that the winner could see what the loser was writing, and may have won with that advantage.
(she seemed to adjust her handwriting with this in mind)
Really enjoyed first game when it got going – maths and mischief with emphasis on mischief, this is what we want. And hurrah for the return of games you can summarize quickly like in the first series. Also really enjoyed the trick time cut which looked to be a massive spoiler but turned out to be largely irrelevant.
The poker guy twigging he could change to watermelon and stuff it up for them happened around the same time I wondered if anyone would do that, but I didn’t forsee the watermelons twigging that was going to happen and counter strategizing against it. So that was interesting. In the end it basically came down to unexpected final round betrayal.
Death Match was meh.
You though the Death Match was Meh? What is a favorite Death Match? Don’t say Tactical Yutnori.
Black and White II was a vast improvement over Black and White which I thought was a very weak death match. I liked the game in its design, and I liked how it played: that Ahyoung, attempting to fall on her sword and bidding her last 2 points, ended up winning the game? I don’t think we would have guessed that such a thing might happen, or that they’d get down so low in points.
The best Death Match is clearly Quattro.
Yeah that’s a really good one.
I’m going to go out on a limb and predict that Kyunghoon will be walking around with a target on his back until he gets eliminated, which probably won’t be long as there’s a good chance he’s going to get picked for Death Matches after this unless he gets immunity again.
Yep. What’s another instance of someone going so far out of his way to backstab such a large number of people? I was thinking the Blackout Game, and the fellow… you know the one… the bean peeler. Jinho’s rival, who ended up finishing in second place (like Jinho usually does!).
That said, backstabbing the entire lot as early as Episode 1 is pretty bold.
Surely it is never a good idea to open with 0 in the deathmatch? Since your opponent always goes 10 & this is an excellent score. (given you have 100 points to spend on 7 rounds, so on average you are spending 14ish points a round. 10 points for a guaranteed win is a bargain.)
(Perhaps this is not true later on in the game, when points are scarce, but I was stunned that the first two rounds opened with 0.)
I agree. It’s quite good to be first to victory, so strike. Bet you can hope for with 0 is a tie.
It’s never a good idea to start with a single digit bet due to the colour clueing. You’re giving up guaranteed wins at the dirt cheap price of ~71% total points/max rounds.
Yes – opening with Black seems poor.
It might be better to play 9 against a black opening, saving single points is crucial to the game.
It would be risky but interesting to play 1, on the assumption that your opponent could only justify a black opening if it was 0. At least, the first time that happened 😉
I did like this death match and would be happy to see it again.
The Deathmatch is a modified version of the pencil-and-paper game Footsteps…
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:v3tiTfP4xpIJ:www.cte.bilkent.edu.tr/~cte206/Footsteps_1.pdf+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
(Differences include you only start with 50 points, you must put down at least 1 point per turn, you know exactly how many points your opponent has left instead of a range, and instead of being a set number of rounds the objective is to win three more rounds than the opponent)…
fun first episode I think…
I think having modified versions of classic pencil and paper strategy games is good. I’d like to see the Order-and-Chaos connect 5 game I saw first in Schlag Den Brig 2.
But you know what else I’d like to see more of? Set pieces like Laser Chess or Same Picture Hunt. A big build.
The show is back! A much better episode one than in either of the two previous series, and what a stylish way to start the show. Hurrah for the soundtrack, too.
Fascinating death match. Here’s a theory that I didn’t see anyone raise: if the opponent plays a 0-9 card, while you clearly can win by playing 10, you might choose to assume they’ve played a 0 and thus play a 1 to score a very, very inexpensive win. (Or, knowing this is possible, a 2 or a 3 – but, certainly, much less than a 10.) A really cheap win like that and four close-to-25s would be difficult to beat. (Would have been interesting to see what happens in the case of a draw in the death match…)
I was hoping that one of them would throw a 0 towards a 10+ item, especially just after halfway, because that then really puts pressure on your opponent by spending a lot of points more than you.
I agree with the comment about the beautiful art direction this season, as with every season. But I have to defend Season 2 Episode 1 because I loved Food Chain the most of all, and Quattro was quite a good Death Match. You might not have loved that the other players had a hand in the outcome, but I think it’s a better overall game than Black and White II.
And what about the eliminee in S2E1 and his boastful ways? And the cast entrance… yeah that was a really good episode. Thankfully, this one was too.
Show’s back – hooray!
I enjoyed the real world intros quite a bit. Titles are just plain ugly, and not nearly fanciful enough. New set’s a vast improvement on last season, although I’m not really a fan of faux grime, and some of the rooms look like moving about in them would be difficult. Changing the iconic garnet design is an odd move, especially if you only do it for the physical object but not its representation. Those horns did make them hard to handle I suppose. Mailbox only makes sense as an answer to favoritism gossip, and it’s still a time waster.
Cast is more quiet, and boringly dressed by comparison with past seasons, but decently skilled. No real favourites so far – maybe math guy? Losing one of the few women on an already imbalanced cast though was unpleasant.
The main game was perfectly designed, and feels thoroughly playtested and tuned. Games leaning exclusively on trust and negotiation are not my thing, and I still had quite a bit of fun. I expected complete chaos and treason going in, and was pleasantly surprised at the amount of co-operation on display.
The deathmatch… well let’s just say it was an improvement on the game of the same name. I wanted something the show is really good at normally – props. An actual physical lamp display rather than tacky graphics, possibly wrapped around the podiums. A pair of Rolodexes for scoring rather than touch screens. Any form of display for white or black bets. I also wanted sensible rules, and this had few. The Black-White split being so far south of Points/Rounds meant it barely worked.
Let me try my hand on improving it. Add contestants’ garnet count to total points. Replace the High-Low clues with the original odd-even. Replace fixed number of rounds with: 1 fixed round, then asking each non participant once if they would like duelists to play another round, to be played immediately after non-participant answers yes. Then add bonus wins for first use of a digit in a bet (both players using the digit in the same round scores 0 for both and the digit counts as used).
The new garnets seem to be smaller so I wondering if they are planning on giving away more this season. Otherwise it really doesn’t make any sense to change such an iconic prop.
I don’t like the new title scenes at all it seems out of place compared to the previous two.
xr, my jaw is kind of on the floor, you made a giant number of really excellent points.
Yes the cast is muted colors, not like Season 2’s neons. It’s cliche to say by now, but it’s going to take me a while to learn who everyone is. I’m especially bad at reading faces. A breakout character like Hongchul is easy to remember and he’s still my favorite. Dongmin has some big shoes to fill.
And then your assessment of Black and White II is most trenchant and I like all the improvements. Cheers to you xr.
Genius III!!!
That is one heck of a trap main match. It was tailor-made to allow someone to win via huge sabotage… and become a massive target with no allies going forward. Someone took the bait; should be interesting to see how hard everyone makes it for him the next few rounds.
The death match is a tricky game to crack. The average is 11 points per round, but the line between black/white is between 9 and 10, but the lights turn out every 20 points spent. I wonder if the best strategy is some form of the “avoid taking the last coin” game, where you’re always trying to make sure you directly counter your opponent’s strategy. Play 9 on the black, play 10/11 on the white, only step over the light boundary when your opponent steps first… or if they play multiple straight black numbers, at which point you likely have a lead and options.
Each player is part of two prisoner’s dilemmas: great stuff. But c’mon, admit it, eating prey is better than selling fruit. Carnivore games > herbivore games (You don’t actually have to admit anything you don’t wish to)
It shouldn’t be hard to set up a test game of Black and White II for us to try tactics. Who wants to volunteer? And I move we make some or all of xr’s modifications.
If Kyunghoon only betrayed Ahyoung in one of the fruits, then he will still win the main match and Ahyoung will be tied for last spot with several others. Then he would have been able to protect Ahyoung from the DM and not make himself look so bad.
I was sad that the dealer lady, Juri, was eliminated so early on, however, she did make a very bad move in the last round.
Ahyoung drove me crazy with her hair flicks and facial expressions during DM.
Stop playing with your hair!
I was really impressed by the depth of strategy available in the death match. Don’t think either contestant really scratched the surface on possible tactics. While I’m usually not a fan of the way they reuse death match games over the course of the series, this is one that I wouldn’t mind seeing come back again.
Next week’s Main Match looks to be taking inspiration from the party card game The Resistance, a game that is equal parts entertaining and infuriating.
…and whose rules are detailed further here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Resistance_%28game%29 It’s a fun game, we play it on the cheap with a deck of cards frequently at my weekly game night. We only use the basic rules though, I’m curious to see how the variation with the leaders plays out.
I don’t have much else to say that doesn’t echo what most people have already said. Interesting victory/target trap in the Main Game, wouldn’t mind seeing this Death Match come back, sad that she’s gone, and that we’re down to a 3:1 gender ratio after only one episode.
It was only a matter of time before The Resistance got a look in really, since bluffing and deception games seem to be what The Genius does best.
The Resistance is brilliant fun to play, by the way, as evidenced by that time they played it on TableTop: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_QRczGzXqw
The Resistance is a lot of fun, although it remains to be seen whether the Koreans will turn it into a shouting match like our games inevitably end up as.
So they’re 3 black mission:
Math black mission, Memory black mission and Observation black mission.
What are they? Seems boring…
Must be some kind of solo challenge. Page from Krypton Factor’s book? Or The Cube? Only not pub games.
Unless black garnets are distributed more generously than the currently-known rules suggest, which is potentially quite a big “unless”, it seems most unlikely that there will be many of these Black Missions played. Even if people start trading or pooling black garnets, there would surely be at most three of them over the course of the series. (Winning a black garnet late on might be anticlimactic if there’s literally no chance to play it, so there might be a late rule change.) Accordingly, even if the Black Missions themselves are not too exciting, they’re going to be rare, meaningful and tense… but fingers crossed that there is something spectacular planned.
I would presume given they’ve subtitled the whole series around them they’ll start offering them as main match prizes just to ensure they get used.
Or maybe not! Seriously, what does “Rule breaker” have to do with S2? None of the game really [i]rule breaking[/i]
They’ve made it a centeal feature in the rules and everything! I guarantee it will happen.
As you can tell by my prolix replies, I am bursting with gladness that S3 is here and that I get to share it with you, the community of English speaking Genius fans. To all of you I say, Fighting.
Fighting!
There was a severe lack of “Extreme Ways” in that episode, but a brilliant start to the series no less
Possibly controversial opinion: the first series had too much Extreme Ways. If there’s a game where someone does a completely surprising mega backstab where the consequences can roll out over the next minute or two then there can be nothing more fighting than sticking in a BWEEEEEEEEEEE BWEEEEEEEEEEE BWEEEEEEEEEEE straight after the stab and letting the tune play as the consequences make themselves felt (after all, there’s always time in life for this…) but perhaps better to save it for a special occasion, just once or twice per series.
A really bad move on the Criminal Team part that cost them a win.
However, they would not have guessed Oh HyunMin as the citizen leader anyways. I am rooting for the young KAIST student and Kim YooHyun, the poker player-turned English teacher to reach the finals.
Lawyer Kang was scary in the DM, as much as I do not like to admit it, he truly understood how the game worked and knew that Rounds 7 and 8 were the deciding rounds, not the last two rounds. Good job!
Next week’s Main Match looks very interesting. It seems like there is going to be special power or abilities too! Can’t wait.
Once again, big thank you to Bumdidlyumptious for subbing.
Yep, episode two is up. The main match was both clever and fun, though possibly slightly more clever than it was fun, and extremely well-played. (Or, arguably, simultaneously extremely well and badly played.) In general it slightly takes the bloom off to know that the game isn’t original, but there was enough of a twist compared to what I was familiar with to keep the game fresh. (If anyone is familiar with not just The Resistance but its expansions, it would be interesting to know if the captaincy twist was devised by the show or was presaged in an expansion.)
I liked the death match a lot more than its series one “longest streak wins” counterparts – there was definitely much more of a game to it, other than the social game of trying to convince people to cough up the info, as conceivably there could be some value in the strategy of deliberately trying to lose if you think your opponent will bet sufficiently big on you to win.
The game design has been really tight and smart so far this year throughout. Hurrah!
I think you’re putting a lot of pressure on the producers to come up with 20 never-before-seen games every year. Even The Resistance uses prior art.
A really good episode with some lovely tactical moments.
That’s fair. I am always pleasantly surprised that the show has been able to come up with as many games as it has, and wonder how long its lifespan really might be before the show starts needing to scrape the barrel a little.
Part of me hopes that any Western version uses only the most interesting games from the various series of the original, but this would leave the Western version struggling for content for a second series!
The ‘leader’ bit was added to Resistance: Avalon as the Merlin character (although it doesn’t happen both ways – if the good guys lose there’s no equivilent bad guy leader to pick, but if the baddies can work out who Merlin is then they can turn a loss into a victory).
Actually thought the Jury Game dragged a bit but loved loved LOVED Betting Rock Paper Scissors, as much about playing your opponent as it was gathering information. Also I liked that I reckoned Lawyer Kang would go for a draw in that deciding round just as I thought it would be the corredt strategy. Good stuff.
Does anyone understand why Lawyer Kang ‘exposed’ Kim Jeong Hoon before the game even started?
He really did not need to put Kim Jeong Hoon on the spot and attract everyone’s attention on him.
I have seen better games of The Resistance than this. The criminal team could have done better instead of having the citizen team take control of the whole game from Round One.
I think that Lawyer Kang’s way of getting information from the players in the DM could haunt him in the future. It might cause people to be wary of him and even choose him as the elimination candidate later on.
P.S. Cha Yu Ram from Season 1 and Noh Hong Chul from Season 2 were both winners in their respective DMs in Round Two and were ultimately eliminated in Round Eight. Will Lawyer Kang’s fate be the same this time around?
I was just about to say the same thing regarding Lawyer Kang’s tactic. Especially since it’s likely that the players will talk about it sooner or later, at which point they’ll figure out that Lawyer Kang’s been making the same threat to multiple people and there’s no way he could target so many at once. It’s the sort of thing which we saw several times in Season 2, and almost every time it caused the user to win the battle but lose the war due to the target they put on their backs in the process.
Also, I loved the Death Match. I saw the results of rounds 9 and 10 coming a mile away though. But for once we have a Death Match where the other players’ influence on the game exists in a way that doesn’t boil down to “the player with the bigger alliance is almost sure to win”. There’s still plenty of potential bluffs and double-bluffs to be made here, even if you know what every other player has played.
I suspect the DM rules this time around favor the player who gets choice of bet or play in the final round, because it’s always favorable to play in the final round if you know the card. If you’re in the lead, you can tie to secure a win, while if you’re behind by 1 or 2 chips, you can play a non-tie and force your opponent to guess whether you won or lost. If you won, your opponent has to bet at least 2 chips on Win to keep their lead, while if you lost and your opponent bet at least 2 chips on Win, you catch up. (Note that this doesn’t work for a 3-chip disadvantage, since your opponent can just bet 2 on Win for a guaranteed match win.)
Here’s a list of people who failed to win Mafia:
> A guy with degree on leadership
> Poker player
> Actor and math genius
> Lawyer and politician
> A psychological comic writer
Shouldn’t this is the winning DREAM TEAM? Filled with people with huge IQ, charming, bluffing, and ambitious…
And they failed like, uh..
Here’s another perspective. I was really, really interested to hear mention in the contestants’ introduction that one of the non-celebs had (joint) won the KAIST version of The Genius. (It’s very exciting that KAIST might have its own version, on the grounds that if a top Korean university can run a fan version, then anywhere with sufficiently many fans might run its own fan version.) It’s tempting to wonder what games they might have used – surely they wouldn’t have repeated the show’s own games – and whether there’s the happy accident that one of the contestants might end up having played something very similar to one of the actual live games in the past.
I agree.
I have read and heard about the KAIST’s The Genius back in May this year when the KAIST students made their own version of the game and filmed it. They said that they would release the videos of the competition; however, when TVN announced that Season 3 will air in October, the news of uploading the videos died away.
I have heard that the KAIST version was supported by TVN. I am not exactly sure, though.
That does bring the whole episode full circle. The player ID’d as the winner of the KAIST Genius was the same player who was the citizens’ leader. A little experience in decisive action does go a long way.
Still, it doesn’t take a… ahem, *genius*, to watch a group of five disappear into a room, four of the five known criminals, and make a big move. Lawyer Kang I think overstated the advantage of prior art. It’s always been an issue; some games don’t work as well on the 2nd play, but some mistakes shouldn’t be made the 1st time.
Pretty meh episode for me. Resistance probably plays better without the expansion, and that would have made the reskinning less confusing to the casual viewer. And it played out with such a lack of skill I was mostly frustrated watching it.
Deathmatch… happened: I found myself barely caring. Turtling felt so very often and obviously the best strategy, and the ending hands were obvious a mile away. A player without a plan facing a player unsure of the rules wasn’t exactly riveting.
The show is always excellent at creating stories via editing, and the attraction sequence was just wonderfully composed. I’m quite surprised there were pre-show interviews filmed just-in-case they were useful, but the effort payed off.
Actually one of the interesting differences between The Resistance and The Jury Game is that in TR everyone has to do their colluding in plain sight whereas here everyone can scurry off and have private chats. I’m not sure if that’s an improvement.
Let’s design a hopefully better and overly complex RPS duel for kicks. First, let’s increase the number of symbols from 3 to 2*observers+1. So, for 12 observers, http://www.umop.com/rps25.htm is perfect. Dealer has a single full set of visible tiles for all observers. Observers go to the dealer in turn and pick two of the tiles still available: one to be held by the dealer for their use during the duel, and one removed from play. Optionally, you may pay a garnet for the privilege of the dealer saving both for you. Discussion / extortion time should complete the setup.
Each duelist is given a full set of tiles, and the play sequence goes Player 1 – Observer – Player 2, with order reversing after each observer. Player one plays a tile against the observer, and another against his opponent. Dealer marks which of the two tiles beats the other. Observer plays his tile. Player 2 also plays a tile against each. Any tile players played face down is now turned over, and wins are scored. Each player gets to score a winning streak against observers, and also a winning streak against their opponent. Shortest one is how well they did for the duel. The end of the game is considered consecutive with the beginning for scoring purposes.
See the unexpected music-sting-worthy thing an observant who bought an extra tile can do?
I like the idea, however, the original rock-paper-scissors game might be too cemented in the players and viewers head that they cannot process the increased number of signs.
Right now, you are dealing with 24 different signs and each sign can beat and be beaten by numerous other signs. The DM players might not be able to play strategically due to time constraints on learning how it works. And possibly, it might end up as a luck-based match, which no one wants to happen.
I did preface it with “overly complex”, although proper visuals would be much help: Write the alphabet around a circle, state “a letter beats the dozen letters in front of it and is beaten by the dozen behind it”, and you’re done explaining symbols. A segmented ring display for each player can track the wins against the observers, while a third shared one could track their direct matches with little trouble.
Which is not to say you couldn’t cut out a whole lot. You can cut down symbol count to observer+1 by skipping the trashing of symbols during setup and using a single tile against both observer and opponent for the round, and you’d still have a mostly working game of trust and slowly painting yourself in a corner unless you’re careful. And if you only need the game to provide you with slo-mo, intense staring and double takes, you can also replace open observer symbol selection with blind draw, cut out the player-to-player matches and the wrapping around of streaks and you’re there.
As the psychological writer said, Lawyer Kang is like Kim Gura. At the end, people hunt him down… But before they hunt him down, he hunt them like what we saw.
I think he was beaten, on Top 7? On a non-cooperative game? The death match was Indian Poker for sure, but I cant recall the MM.
Lawyer Kang wont win. Mark my word.
From the preview, looks like next week’s game is going to be a version of the board game Magical Athlete…
http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/24565/magical-athlete
I was sort of meh on this weeks game-the fact that the losing team could blunder the way into a win with a lucky guess seems sort of off…Deathmatch was interesting though- I had a hunch that deliberately tying at some point would be a good strategy.
Epiosde three is up. Go go go!
Last week we have predicted this week’s outcome: the players took revenge on the lawyer. And I’m really happy about that. The main match itself was a bit complicated, I could follow all the moves but it wasn’t enough time to think about strategies myself. I still don’t like “Black and White II”, but as I said, I love the outcome! And next week’s game seems unpredictable… Anyway I think Hyunmin might have a rough time ove the next couple of weeks, he’s just too strong. He’s almost got “target” written on his back, in my opinion…
(By the way, great use of Florence + the machine in this episode, though “freedom” and “extreme ways” are still missing.)
When I saw 20 in first round, I thought, Wow! That’s good strategy! Lawyer Kang will seriously win if he had be patient in round 2.
Main match, was complicated. I can follow but yeah, can’t think any strategy.
Anyone think Dongmin will win? He is seriously upgraded version of Hongchul.
1) Brig called it!
2) Another very clever episode, slightly more admirable than fun. Breathtakingly intricatedly designed.
3) The main match was definitely at the upper end of how complex the show can be and get away with it, probably a bit too complex; there were definitely points where I really wasn’t following what was going on, or quite how the different powers interacted, and just let it flow over me. However, the storytelling was clear for arguably the most crucial part, about determining who would finish first, so that worked.
4) Yay for the Death Match! However, I’d not welcome another outing for it, unless there are hidden subtleties yet to be drawn out of it, which I’m not sure there are.
Clever game but played two weeks too early, I think. Just too many people to concentrate on.
Agreed- 9 players probably would have made it a lot more workable…not sure what powers you’d take out though. Liked the game though.
Nice touch in giving black garnets to the first and last safe players; and with the previews showing the players are talking about using them, you know they’ll be used at some point.
If I was making the decision, the two I’d take out would be One, who doesn’t really have any interaction with the other players (though isn’t necessarily a weak role), and either Union or Push since they interacted horribly. Union, if I had to choose between the two, just because Push is a touch more versatile.
One would definitely have been my first pick as a player, you couldn’t affect anyone else but everyone’s effect on you would be to your benefit.
Yes agreed, looked like a fun game to play (I say fun, I liked the quick shot of the Dealer almost not following it at one point – definitely going to look into Magical Athlete at some point though thanks David) but I’m not qui-i-i-te convinced it worked brilliantly as television – very clever, but too much to take in to form some sort of strategy yourselves. Although I’d suggest this felt a bit more successful then previous “lots of roles” games they tried last year, they did try and explain and remind a bit more.
It was quite interesting that the the point of Lawyer Kang not being able to reset when he only had one card was handled in an atypical low key way.
We must get a game that’s a bit like Cosmic Encounter at some point, surely?
That Black Garnets were going to be offered as Main Match prizes is Production 101, surely?
Interested to see what the final prize ends up being – lots of Garnets going into the game now, but lots are going to be taken out of the game later unless the rules change. Expect final two players will play for their combined amounts. I liked that they cottoned on to the idea that you can give garnets away to people to keep them in the game, but also that the producers considered that and put in the rule that you have to do it before the end of the Main Match.
They seemed to be talking about something of an escrow strategy near the top of the show that they never followed up on: if the deathmatch players were able to give all their garnets to a third party before the deathmatch, there’s nothing for production to take out once someone loses. They could theoretically recreate the original rules, or distribute them more equally, or a greedy third party could take them all if they wanted.
I wonder if someone quietly said to them “no don’t do that please” since the idea just disappeared.
I think I edited my comment at the end as you posted that.
Am I the only one that thinks all of the garnets removed via deathmatch will be re-introduced into the pot at the end?
I hadn’t considered that but it is of course perfectly plausable.
I think what the production team wants to do is to experiment how many garnets would remain by Episode 12. Right now, as the show production is still underway ( should be filming episode 8-9 around now as they film 4-5 episodes ahead of air date) , I think they deliberately did not say what would happen to disposed garnets. They have 3 main courses of action currently:
1) Make black garnets worth something monetary after all the black missions are completed or unable to do them anymore (I.e. as in final 4 where black mission do not work as there is no one else to nominate) if pot needs to be buffed up.
2) Reintroduce the disposed garnets back into the final pot if the amount is too low in the end and needs to be buffed up.
3) Do nothing if final prize money is still a handsome amount.
This is a fool-proof way to not clearly state it so they can back up or add on.
Also, I would not deny that the production team might want to plant the thought in players to think that if the garnets are not reimbursed, eliminating players with less garnet would be an asset, thus, changing the game ambiance and strategy.
Again this strikes me as being a decent production decision, especially as I’ve criticised various versions of The Mole in the past for advertising a topline prize and then basically messing around to ensure it happens (which looks silly in the context of the show), whereas if you don’t say what the theoretical maximum is then things can look like a happy accident.
One thing that’s struck me as odd is that when they talk about player’s garnet counts, they’ve rounded it off as “There are 24 garnets in play; you all hold a share of $24,000” (or whatever), but the idea of holding a share of a total prize really doesn’t work, conceptually, if bits of it are chipped away when players are eliminated.
That’s made me wonder if maybe Brian has it right? It’d make those statements more meaningful.
I thought that too when I saw the line. Of course, it’s possible that they’re just keeping the same stock phrase from previous seasons. It would sort of give it away if they had changed it…
Now this is reminding me of the days before Amazing Race changed the clues to say “the last team to arrive -may- be eliminated” – for quite a few seasons, the final clue either said “will be eliminated” or didn’t. That reduced the suspense quite a bit…
I’ve also been expecting the removed garnets to be awarded to the final winner of the game. This theory would explain many things, like how the Bandage Hyung still says “you all hold a share of (amount)” as well as why the idea of giving away garnets just before the Main Match is over was quietly dropped. I think it’s plausible that the producers went up to the players while the cameras were off and told them that the final pot would include the garnets removed through Death Matches. And assuming the wording was accurately translated, the Death Match rules only say the loser’s garnets are “removed”, not “lost” or “discarded” (as it was usually worded in Season 2 when something would be permanently removed from play). That last one could just be a translation quirk though — if anyone here knows Korean, I’d be much obliged if you could fill us in here.
Speaking of which, I like the overall rules and garnet distribution much better this season. I think the producers were giving out huge single awards of 10+ garnets in Season 2 because they were hoping people would form an alliance to push one person to win in exchange for splitting the prize (as depicted a couple times in Liar Game), but that went completely pear-shaped when Sangmin ended up with a boatload of garnets halfway through the season. Not only was there a massive imbalance of power, the Death Match rules meant it was in Sangmin’s own best interests to spend his garnets as quickly as possible, lest the others target him for the Death Match in hopes of winning his big pile of garnets. Between this and the fact that “no stealing” was explicitly mentioned as a rule (which would’ve prevented Doohee’s ID from being stolen and the entire Main Match being rendered moot that day), I think the producers have noted everything that went wrong in Season 2 and are trying to fix them this time around.
As for this week’s episode, I quite liked the Main Match, particularly for all the possible combinations of powers. It was definitely better than most of the “everyone has a different role” games from Season 2. In Food Chain and Layoff, a lot of roles were natural allies or enemies, making the combos and alliances too obvious from the start. This time around, most of the cooperative roles were part of multiple possible combos, which made the alliances much more interesting to say the least.
Just for fun, I’ve tried to list all the combos and anti-combos (i.e. plays that thwart other players) I could find, including those that were brought up in the episode. Can anyone else find more?
Combos:
* Mirror + Gravity, mentioned in the episode
* Push + Union could take everyone near them with a lower number than Union and drag them back an arbitrary distance. Push moves everyone up through Union back, Union triggers and pulls back the rest of the group including Push, and the cycle repeats.
* Push + Union + Reset and/or Delete, used in the episode.
* Push + Union + Mirror: Not the failed attempt seen in the episode, but there’s another combo that can move a whole team (regardless of number) back 1 or 2 spaces while pushing any one victim forward one space as long as they’re already ahead of the group. First, Union and Mirror line up on the same row, call this row X. Push moves into row X, pushes Union back to X-1, who will pull Push back with them. Push pushes Union back to X-2 and gets pulled back again. Then Push pushes Union forward to X-1, which makes Union trigger on everyone still in row X including Mirror, who can then either target the victim, or target Push to bring them all to row X-1 and repeat the process a second time. However, note that Mirror can’t target the same player twice, so this can’t loop infinitely.
* Delete + With: Delete can leave With with just a 4, who can then target Delete to help them escape last place if the situation arise.
* Delete + One: Delete can leave someone else with a 1 to give One a free move.
* Quick + Delete or Reset
Anti-Combos:
* Silence on anything, obviously.
* Delete on Jump, used in the episode.
* Reset to thwart With, since With’s power only activates when playing the last card.
* Delete on Quick, leaving them with a 4 or a 1, whichever is more disadvantageous.
My only complaint was that the board state was a bit hard to follow at times though, and clearly I wasn’t alone because even the dealer got confused momentarily. But that was also quite amusing considering how the dealers are usually portrayed as the epitome of professionalism.
Of course the other wrinkle is that the powers come into play in numerical order, so some combinations would work differently depending on which one triggered first.
Have you watched the extra video from the previous episode involving the dealer?
Yup, I thought it was quite amusing as well. But this was the first time a dealer breaking their stoic professionalism made it into the actual episode.
I’m thinking they’re locking down the garnet transfers as a way of maintaining their power within the game. There’s no one with a huge 10- or 20-garnet lead, but we’ve not had any games yet that distribute garnets in an all-or-nothing fashion. So while the spread of garnets is tightly maintained, even one or two garnets could swing the series. I think spending three garnets to buy the advantage in this early-series game might come back to bite her later on (sorry I’m terrible with names).
I really loved this episode, and I appreciate how they set up a multi-role game that was still easy to follow (or at least, easier than the animal and office games from last series). I’m glad the DM winner is still in the game, and I love how the one other player keeps having amazing “!”-revelation moments and breaks the games open (again, sorry for the lack of names). I hope these two go far.
Theory: games played with composite numbers of players will be more than 50% likely to be team games, games played with prime numbers of players will be more than 50% likely to be solo games. (Does the data from previous series support this theory?) Accordingly, I think this game would only ever have been played with 11 or 7 players, and I think there’s a moderate chance that the 9-player game will be based around three teams.
The design of the series two 11-player game to create two fives and a one was really clever, even if the results were only moderately fun.
I can’t help but like Hyunmin – flagrantly brilliant and charmingly naive at the same time. I feared for him when he proposed a strategy for last which relied on the good grace of Gravity to get him out of hot water.
The economics of garnets are gnawing at me. The trading restrictions and monetary worthlessness of black garnets seem overly harsh. While the early games seem to be more rewarding than other seasons, it doesn’t seem like they compensate for those gone out through deathmatches; perhaps I should go back and keep tally. Escrow arrangements and last wills and testaments should be actively encouraged: they come with great risk to participants, and provide ample opportunity for character development and drama.
The main match setup was pretty good, and very enjoyable. I am a sucker for obscene combos, and this delivered in spades. The dealer losing track of the game was adorable. A rolling power activation order could have shaken out more delicious combos, but oh well. Roles were clearly not created equal. This wasn’t unfair due to the role selection process, but I could empathise with some of the frustrated. I expect this game to be played again near the end of the season.
B&W II was shot and edited so much better than last time, though I still hope it’s the last time we see it. At least now I have some idea of who Yeonseung is.
Yeah I like Hyunmin as well, more than the touch of the Jinho about him.
I feel like Oh Hyun Min, KAIST and Kim Yoo Hyun, Poker Player are the Sunggyu and Jinho of Season 3.
The reason being that Jinho and Kim Yoo Hyun both stumbled a bit in the group matches while Hyun Min and Sunggyu were in the winning alliances most of the time.
The selection of powers show their personalities too.
Attack powers like Silence and Delete were unsurprising chosen by Nam Hwee Jong and Shin Ah Young, who had their eyes on the prize, in my opinion.
Assistive powers like Reset was chosen by Ha Yeon Joo, which matches because both the power and her do not like to stand out and antagonize anyone. No threat=Go to round 4.
Solo powers such as Quick and One show how Yoo Hyun is a more independent player, not affecting anyone while not affected by anyone (except silence); Jang Dong Min benefits from other players’ interaction, but his actions does not affect others shows how he can rightfully join in discussions but not affect any decision-making.
Group powers like Push shows how Oh Hyun Min chooses to play as a group than choose a solo power like Jump.
(To be honest, Jump is not bad, but Lawyer Kang just either does not get the game rules like he usually does or something and chose to use 4, even at the beginning! I mean, for him, going forward is certainly not a problem, but staying with the group is the challenge. He cannot just rely on Silence to stop his power all the time. It makes him very vulnerable as he is always in the front of the pack. Not to say that Jump does not any bargaining power with other players already.)
Yoo Su Jin showed that she manoeuvres a lot in the background unnoticed, but her true competitive edge showed up and allowed her the 10th place finish. That move on the doctor showed how she will do what it takes to win, even if it means getting her hands dirty.
I loved the selection of Florence + The Machine’s Bedroom Hymn in the final stages of the Main Match.
A nice touch and vibe for the closing stages of a game with winners’ and losers’ fates sealed.
Now, I’ve been wrong about this sort of thing before but I’m just putting this out there:
http://www.realitywanted.com/call/30709-now-casting-exciting-new-challenge-show#.VEZS1vnF-VO
“We’re looking for people who appear to be between 18-25.”
Young Genus?
“Appear to be” between a certain age bracket is a weird way to put it. Do LA casting calls normally say that?
Certainly sounds Genius-ish, curiouser and curiouser.
Nice catch Brig! “Appear to be” is not common, but most people who work in casting are not wordsmiths of the first order, so we should not read too much into this phraseology.
I’m 18-25, but I’m not sure I “appear to be” -_- Oh well, LA isn’t too far and it’d be worth it, might as well apply… although if this is really Genius:US, I doubt they’re looking for people who’ve watched the original…
You could always just feign ignorance! 😀
1) Really wacky thought: is there ever a circumstance where it would be in the interest of someone with (at least access to) three black garnets to *choose* to steal from another player in order to be disqualified, be placed last, then perform (and presumably win) a Black Mission in order to be able to choose who goes to the Death Match in their place? I can’t imagine that there could be, but if someone could find reason to do that, and pull it off successfully, it would be the most incredible improper gameplay. (Perhaps if there’s a rock-solid two-player alliance that the other players want to split, by contriving to ensure that both of the two players end up in the Death Match against each other…?)
2) Really nasty thought: I have this horrible suspicion that a UK version of The Genius would have a Dave Lamb sarcastic voiceover which would drain all the fun and atmosphere from it at once. This is an anti-request, not a suggestion.
3) I have the music from the Wonderwall going through my head. Could be worse.
I’m not really convinced a sarcastic voiceover would suit, but let’s not forget the graphics in the Korean show are largely comedy based so I don’t think it needs to be dry.
I can’t think of a more terrifying misstep than trying to sell The Genius in CDWM style. Maybe Total Wipeout style.
I am working the night shift tonight and so needed to get more sleep this afternoon. Instead of sleeping, I have been thinking about black garnets. Here are some questions whose answers I don’t know and I don’t think we know.
1) If you play and win a Black Mission and can switch another player into the Death Match, can you pick a player with a token of life?
2) If you are switched into the Death Match but have three black garnets yourself, can you play a Black Mission in order to attempt to switch yourself back out of the Death Match?
I dearly hope the answers are “yes” in the hope of a moment as dramatic as that of the immunity idol of series two. SPECULATION! Oh.
I have to assume that after all 3 Black Missions are claimed, opting out of the Death Match is no longer possible. And if you’re great at Memory but bad at the other 2 (that does not describe me, because I can’t remember what the other 2 are) you’d better hope nobody does the memory Black Mission before you get to it.
1. No. It was mentioned in the rule.
2. I hope yes. This will be an exciting scenario.